View topic - Why is my granite discoloring? :: Stone Advice You have no new messages Log out [ al ] Get Allied! Why is my granite discoloring? Goto page Previous 1, 2 Stone Advice Forum Index -> Stone Advice Forum View previous topic :: View next topic AuthorMessage GK Good Friend Joined: 15 Oct 2006 Posts: 15 Location: AL & SC Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:54 am Post subject: Jan, Your observation was correct I inspected this job last week and it is China black pearl also known by several other names. It is in the basalt range of stones and is very sensitive to acids. These tops were cleaned with a citrus cleaner and every spray from the bottle bleached the color below. It did not etch the polish but may have if left longer on the face. Most stones are not doctored or doped but have minerals that are affected by the cleaners sold on the market today. We all commercially sell granite countertops but very few of the products we sell are true granite. The granite company that supplied and installed this job is a good company in our area. They were sold this stone as an acceptable material for kitchens. Few granite companies today test their samples for performance mainly due to their dependence on their material supplier to sell quality products. The lesson here is when doing large multiple units your liability for error is greater and the financial loss can be devastating. Document your material selection and you and your supplier test material for performance. This job most likely will not go well for anyone involved. It’s always easier to identify problems and point fingers after the failure occurs. Back to top John Koessler Best Friend Joined: 30 Mar 2005 Posts: 437 Location: Mundelein, IL Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:23 pm Post subject: Hi GK, Thanks for reporting back on this. Who specified the product for this complex? I would hope that this does't just fall back on the fabricator. Can these tops be polished back out, or do they all need to be replaced? Very similiar to issues with Black Absolute that the polish remains, but are discolored with acidic products. Based on what you told us (of which I fully agree), it still appears that something acidic spilled and remained on the top (in the two areas pictured above). If a acidic cleaner was used over the entire top, I would think the whole top would be discolored. _________________ John Koessler Koessler Enterprises Mundelein, IL MIA, SFA, & NTCA Member Back to top Todd Luster(tms) Uber Super Dooper Friend Joined: 03 Dec 2005 Posts: 1898 Location: Shawnee, Oklahoma Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: Good job and well done GK! _________________ Get Allied, Join the SFA! Todd Luster SFA, MIA Tile Marble and Stone LLC www.gotgranite.biz Shawnee, Oklahoma tluster@tilemarblestone.com Back to top Curtis Marburger Platnum Fez Cap Wearing Super Homeboy Joined: 03 Sep 2005 Posts: 4845 Location: Central Pa Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject: Thanks for the update and the warning Ouch _________________ Get Allied, Join the SFA www.cornerstonegranite.com Support Our Troops http://www.homesforourtroops.org Back to top GK Good Friend Joined: 15 Oct 2006 Posts: 15 Location: AL & SC Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:53 am Post subject: Domestic Supplier recommended the material to fabricator/installer both may have responsibility. If they use black pigment or black leather dye it will color the stone but you will still see some color differences from angles. Secondly if you dye and reseal the stone it will happen again. You can’t stop new bleaching. This is not like Absolute Z. This material has minerals that are very sensitive to acids Z black will have small traces in some slabs but for the most part will hold up to acids. I can’t say the same for China or India Blacks. Always the best solution is to test each slab before installation. I have other photos that show swirls from the towels the cleaning crew used and let the cleaner sit and soak in. Looks like when you clean glass and the residue shows up only this is below the surface. Again if a company decides to go commercial be sure you are prepared. Another area I have found problems with is shop drawings if you allow the supplier to do them in Brazil or china expect the tops to be wrong. This will waste your labor and remake time. G.K. Back to top Matt Lansing Uberist Superist Homeboy! Joined: 12 Apr 2005 Posts: 2951 Location: Plover WI Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:02 pm Post subject: I would acid wash all the tops to remove the reactive materials and then color enhance. It won't be the same color as they had installed before but it would be a much cheaper alternative to ripping everything out or trying to live with a difficult material. _________________ Matt Lansing, SFA Stone Innovations, Inc. Plover, WI Back to top Todd Luster(tms) Uber Super Dooper Friend Joined: 03 Dec 2005 Posts: 1898 Location: Shawnee, Oklahoma Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: It is still natural stone and has it's own unique character. This one being very unique as taking a distressed look. Will the acid ever affect the texture or only the color?? Might be kinda neat. Let those who want stain them ocassionally and others go al "natural". _________________ Get Allied, Join the SFA! Todd Luster SFA, MIA Tile Marble and Stone LLC www.gotgranite.biz Shawnee, Oklahoma tluster@tilemarblestone.com Back to top GK Good Friend Joined: 15 Oct 2006 Posts: 15 Location: AL & SC Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:36 am Post subject: Gentlemen, This is a serious material problem and to even joke that either would be acceptable in a forum like this may have some unknowing fabricators or owners thinking they could do this. Obviously you can’t remove the minerals and future acidic applications may also have the same reaction and could eventually etch the polished surface. Nor will it discolor evenly throughout the stone. It’s not like washing the dirt out of clothes. If I misunderstood your statements and they were questions and not advise I apologize. I can not tell the tone of your statements but this is a serious educational event. I take it to heart when a fellow fabricator is put in this type of situation. G.K. Back to top Curtis Marburger Platnum Fez Cap Wearing Super Homeboy Joined: 03 Sep 2005 Posts: 4845 Location: Central Pa Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:58 am Post subject: This reaction is beyond bad. We all know that AB Black, Black Pearl, and all the rest of the Granites, should not react to acids in this manner. The problem is convincing the stone supplier that this is wrong and they need to back up their product. _________________ Get Allied, Join the SFA www.cornerstonegranite.com Support Our Troops http://www.homesforourtroops.org Back to top vintagestone Uber Friend Joined: 21 May 2006 Posts: 811 Location: AZ Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:55 am Post subject: wouldnt the fabricator have seen this before install when cleaning with acetone in the shop ? _________________ TJ sherwood SFA http://vintagegranite.com/Html/Main.html Back to top Mark Lauzon Platnum Fez Cap Wearing Super Homeboy Joined: 26 Mar 2005 Posts: 4368 Location: Oregon Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: Honestly this is not the fabricators fault. I have seen that stuff...it is from China. Never processed it before....I would have never guessed the stone would etch and turn WHITE...unreal! It certainly is NOT granite, however having said that....the term "granite" really means nothing in this instance...you could claim that most stone installed in kitchens are not granite...odds are US CUSTOMS did tax it as granite. It is a "mercantile granite" which means it is not limestone, travertine, onyx, (ETC) or marble. Does ANYONE offer a warranty against etching? The unfortunate part is that the enduser is the one that winds up with the headache. If this were a commercial job or spec project the material was most probably specified. How often does the fabricator specify the color used in a project. In that instance what can one say? I would feel responsibility for MY material that I purchase and stock. If the client shops elsewhere or purchases from unreliable sources the onus is on them. I can not imagine that it is reasonable that I should test every single granite slab we cut....especially when the customer picked it. You want to leave the reservation when you choose material, beware! I would try to dye the spot and top polish it. Phew...what a chore. But the problem is it will prolly happen again. _________________ Regards, Mark Lauzon, SFA, MIA www.stoneworks.cc www.granitemonster.com Get Allied...Join The SFA! Back to top Matt Lansing Uberist Superist Homeboy! Joined: 12 Apr 2005 Posts: 2951 Location: Plover WI Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: Well I ran into a similar stone being installed in a hotel near me that was having a similar problem to this. I ran several tests on it and it turned out that a citrus based cleaner, Kenny's Cleaner for cleaning Silestone tops, applied to the top evenly "cleaned" the surface or in other words removed the dye in the stone and removed a large amount of the etchable material in the stone. I then applied a color enhancer which darkened the stone back down to about 75% of where it was but now it was a more livable product with much fewer suprises to the end users. It was no small job either, ninety some rooms with a minimum of three tops in each with some rooms having four or five tops in them plus window sills, and public bathrooms. Now if you are telling me that the stone will always etch and be a problem then it must be quite a porous material that is almost purely calcium based which would never be considered a "granite" and anybody using the stone would be a fool to even consider it or sell it. _________________ Matt Lansing, SFA Stone Innovations, Inc. Plover, WI Back to top Curtis Marburger Platnum Fez Cap Wearing Super Homeboy Joined: 03 Sep 2005 Posts: 4845 Location: Central Pa Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:35 pm Post subject: If it was my Job i would be loosing sleep on this one. I would go and replace all the tops and go after my supplier. The only out I would allow myself is if they specified the stone and supplier. I my self have been burnt by bad stone and replaced it. This is a very hard lesson to learn. Imagine how much time spent by the supplier to dye this stone they knew what they were doing. _________________ Get Allied, Join the SFA www.cornerstonegranite.com Support Our Troops http://www.homesforourtroops.org Back to top Jeff Leun Uber Super Dooper Friend Joined: 16 Mar 2005 Posts: 1541 Location: chattanooga Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: For reasons like this, we dont sell ab black anymore and we keep a spray bottle with vinegar in it for suspect stones. we rarley use it, but when in question we saturate a corner with it and leave it overnight. with the flood of new stones coming out weekly, as fabricators for our own sake, we really need to check what we're working with. to ask the suppliers to do it, its never going to happen. _________________ Get allied, Join the SFA, Dont get left in the slurry Jeff Leun, SFA The Stone Haus Inc Surface Treatment Technologies " Good things come to those who wait, but only whats left by those who hustle" Abe Lincoln Back to top Curtis Marburger Platnum Fez Cap Wearing Super Homeboy Joined: 03 Sep 2005 Posts: 4845 Location: Central Pa Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: Hey Jeff Is Vinigar stronger than lemon Juice? _________________ Get Allied, Join the SFA www.cornerstonegranite.com Support Our Troops http://www.homesforourtroops.org Back to top Jeff Leun Uber Super Dooper Friend Joined: 16 Mar 2005 Posts: 1541 Location: chattanooga Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: good question, dunno. thinking probably about the same, just figured vinegar would keep better after a year on the shelf, only reason. _________________ Get allied, Join the SFA, Dont get left in the slurry Jeff Leun, SFA The Stone Haus Inc Surface Treatment Technologies " Good things come to those who wait, but only whats left by those who hustle" Abe Lincoln Last edited by Jeff Leun on Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:51 pm; edited 1 time in total Back to top Curtis Marburger Platnum Fez Cap Wearing Super Homeboy Joined: 03 Sep 2005 Posts: 4845 Location: Central Pa Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:17 pm Post subject: Yea the Lemon Juice gets Funky I am going to switch to vinigar _________________ Get Allied, Join the SFA www.cornerstonegranite.com Support Our Troops http://www.homesforourtroops.org Back to top Antonio Almonte Uber Super Dooper Friend Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 1650 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, CANADA Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:39 pm Post subject: I'm with ya Jeff! We have stopped selling ab black for about a year now for the same reasons. I tried to get my supplier to test as well but no deal. The answer back to me was "all black stones etch!" I tested some antique brown lately and that too etched. I quickly went over it with the MB marble polishing compound (no color change or cloudiness) and tested again(left it overnight). It didn't etch anymore. _________________ Antonio Almonte, SFA River City Stone Inc. Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Get Allied, join the SFA Back to top Curtis Marburger Platnum Fez Cap Wearing Super Homeboy Joined: 03 Sep 2005 Posts: 4845 Location: Central Pa Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:47 pm Post subject: Cambrian Black From Canada is as close to AB Black we recomend _________________ Get Allied, Join the SFA www.cornerstonegranite.com Support Our Troops http://www.homesforourtroops.org Back to top Todd Luster(tms) Uber Super Dooper Friend Joined: 03 Dec 2005 Posts: 1898 Location: Shawnee, Oklahoma Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:49 am Post subject: Same here, we do a lot of Cambrian. _________________ Get Allied, Join the SFA! Todd Luster SFA, MIA Tile Marble and Stone LLC www.gotgranite.biz Shawnee, Oklahoma tluster@tilemarblestone.com Back to top Steven Hauser Uber Friend Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 1073 Location: Greenville, SC Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:38 am Post subject: GK, I don't understand the dilemma, since it is G684 and is well documented to have a great deal of calcium in its mineralogy there are only two choices. 1) Rip it out and start over. 2) Provide an epoxy coating similar to the ones used by furniture manufacturers. The second option is the weakest. I don't understand why knowing what you know you didn't just recommend replacement? Nice guy or not you know where the liability will end up. One the fabricator and installer. The fabricator may make a claim against the supplier but the owner doean't get into that. My .02 _________________ Get allied, join the SFA! _______________________ Steven Hauser, SFA CIRCA, Inc. Surface Treatment Technologies Taylors, SC Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First Stone Advice Forum Index -> Stone Advice ForumAll times are GMT Goto page Previous 1, 2 Page 2 of 2 Jump to: Select a forum Welcome to the #1 most visited natural stone site in the world!----------------Stone Advice AnnouncementsStone Advice ForumThe Digital ShopThe Soap BoxStone World Lounge Join The Stone Fabricators Alliance! Knowledge Is Power!----------------Building the Alliance!Alliance Dark RoomFriends of the Alliance Other Forums----------------BUY-SELL-TRADELooking for Work!Unofficial MIA members loungeRestoration, Care and Cleaning Forum You can post new topics in this forum You can reply to topics in this forum You can edit your posts in this forum You can delete your posts in this forum You can vote in polls in this forum Copyright ©2005 stoneadvice.com. :: Acceptable Use Policy | Stone Tips Home | Ask The Experts | For the Trades | Photo Gallery | The Directory | Contact Us | Web Design and Marketing by Kosmos